Hope to see you in Brunswick!"
Erik Jorgensen
From: Dennis
Subject: Discussion Group Notes
Greetings:
The 1994 Memorial Day Muster at Little Round Top went well. Present were thirteen group members:
- Dennis Lawrence
- Jim and Margaret Lawrence
- Jim Radmore
- Eileen Murphy
- Eileen O'Toole
- Nancy Robinson
- Terry Moyer
- John and Linda Groves
- Denise Schaefer
- John Connors
- Tom Yagloski
Most discussed book at Gettysburg Memorial Day - William Styple's _With a Flash of his Sword_ . A collection of papers which shows that Michael Shara's strong suit was story telling, not history. Styple's conclusions:
- The attack of the 20th was an impulsive and spontaneous effort to cover their wounded. "Bayonets"was the only command given
- A right wheel forward was never ordered by Chamberlain.
- Approximately 170 men made the charge. It was described as one wild rush.
- Col. Chamberlain did not lead the charge. Lt. Holman Melcher was the first officer down the slope.
- Col. Oates was planning to retreat before the charge was made
- About 80 Confederates retreated northeast and were captured in the Weikert farm lane
- According to Chamberlain, the placing of the monument of the 20th Me. does not mark the position wherethe colors stood (Nor does the monument claim to do so)
- There was no flank move made by the Confederates in an attempt to get around the 20th; it took Oates' right longer to lap around and hit the 20th's left than it did for the left flank of Oates to strike the right of the 20th.
- The construction and removal of Chamberlain Avenue forever altered the terrain where the 20th and the 15th Alabama fought.
- The 20th Maine did indeed save the Union left that day.
Most vindictive letter award goes to Ellis Spears' scoffing at Chamberlain's penis wound. Once friends, Spear turned bitterly against JLC in his later years.
" So far as I have read, "The Passing of the Armies" is a tissue of lies. He (Chamberlain) was not wounded on the Quaker road... Of his wound at Petersburg I know...He was wounded in the penis. Of course I made no examination but the surgeon explained it to me. It was a painful wound of course, as a catheter had to be introduced to carry urine past the wound. That was the only time he was touched by iron or lead. He artfuly made much out of that wound." (Styple, p. 298)
Chamberlain did father a child after this wound - In case you wondered.
Dennis
For a rebuttal of Styple's points, see:
Who Saved Little Round Top? Jim Morgan - A Response To the Melcher Challenge
From: Norm Levitt
Subject: Re: Chamberlain's wound!
For what it's worth, Chamberlains account of the action of the 20th Me. on LRT was given, in its essentials, in his reports to brigade (there seem to be 2 of them) written on July 6, 1863. They are brief but precisely written, and the central point is the flanking attempt of the 15th Ala. and the measures JLC took to frustrate it. It is also clear in this report that JLC ordered the famous bayonet charge.!
It's possible that JLC may have been cooking his reports even then, or even that the doc.'s are back-dated, but this seems far fetched to me. Oates, on the other hand, wrote when he was a well-known Alabama politician, after years and years of "who lost Gettysburg" rabble-rousing. The weight of probability suggests that Oates was trying to get himself off the hook for havaing fled before the charge of a small regiment that was out of ammunition at the time.!
I think that two issues are being confused in this debate: JLC's abilities as a field commander, which seem to me genuine, and, on the other hand, his human qualities. The recent surge of JLC lore, starting with Ken Burns' stuff, makes him look like a plaster saint.!
He wasn't; in fact, he was a prime son-of-a-bitch, an authoritarian and a conservative in his politics (relaative, e.g., to race questions). He was a dreadful failure as an educator, and after the war, nothing much went well for him, despite his 6 years as a war-hero governor. He was too much of a stuck-up snob to be a goodpolitician. Moreover, he was a lousy businesssman.!
But--in his prime he was a fine soldier, and an extraordinarily brave and resilient man. "The Passing of the Armies" is a fascinating book precisely because it's so subjective; It's almost beside the point to fault it for inadequacies as objective history. The real subject is JLC. After all, how interesting would the autobiographies of Cellini or Benjamin or Henry Adams be if they were ruthlessly objective?!
Norm Levitt
From: PhilosCook@aol.com
Subject: Josh's po-po, etc
Only CW addicts would acknowledge how much southern LRT has been altered yet still crawl all around there. My kind of lunatics - you, me, and Ambrose Bierce.
I spoke to the JLC CWRT a few years back and got a great tour of his house, Bowdoin, and The Pines cemetery. There is no doubt JLC's wound was life- threatening because of all the adulation heaped upon his regtl surgeon, who, by the way, was reportedly never very far from JLC for the rest of his life. The close tie was due to the surgeon's continuing need to maintain that catheter-or-whatever arrangement. The doctor had a good head and a strong stomach to jury-rig an internal kind of a shunt and to combat infection for the rest of JLC's life. We're talkin' no germ theory here, folks! In response to my admiration for the doctor, I was also told that JLC had an odd postwar relationship with his wife (What could have been weirder that their prewar antics? Even Trulock's sanitized version couldn't make it go away). She was said to have craved female companionship a la Howard Stern. It's the medical and social blanks about Chamberlain that make me hold Soul Of The Lion & In The Hands Of Providence in such low esteem. The doctor must have left some records somewhere. At any rate, Mark Nesbitt is due out with a collection of Chamberlain's letters and I know he'll do a good job.
As to the accounts left by JLC and Oates, remember what DS Freeman said aboutprofessional speakers adding extra embroidery to the fabric of truth. Don't bother trying to match up JLC, Oates, and the terrain - it's impossible.
The Gburg home page was a pleasant surprise. I got so enraged at the slow, clunky AOL web-browsing program that I hooked up with a local company and now go flying along with Netscape and/or Macweb.
From: Rascal
Subject: Chamberlain's wound
I have to wonder if Spear ever bothered to read Thomas Chamberlains letters or even JLC's letters, let alone the official reports of his wounds outside Petersburg. If his penis was indeed affected by thiswound, it would have been the least of his worries since they thought he was going to die.
As for the dicrepincies as to whether or not someone was wounded, we must remeber that the basis for considering something a wound is far different than it used to be. A simple splinter in the arm is a wound. If it is treated my an army surgeon it is reported as such. This was standard practice during the Civil War. I forget which Corps commander it was, but a Union Coprs commander was treated for "wounds to his feet and claves" after Chancellorsville. He had blisters on his feet and legs from wet boots rubbing his flesh. Since it was treated by an army surgeon, it was a wound, not a malady. It is very possible that JLC was in some way hurt during several engagements and required an examination by an army surgeon. If this was the case, technically, he was wounded.!
As for JLC fathering a child after the war, in spite of the wounds he suffered at Petersburg, now that is amazing. The nerve and muscle groups that run through the lower abdomen are very delicate. Even a muscle tear can lead to impotence for a prolonged period. The type of injury that he sufferd implies that a great deal of tissue was not only displaced, but blown out. His survival was incredible concidering thelack of antibiotics. Fathering a child after this is even more incredible.
Hope I didn't ruffle any feathers, but I really get annoyed by writers who attack historical figures, and try to "set the record straight". Very rarely do they do anything more than muddy an already unclearsituation. As for the books on the 20th Me at Gburg, I have read it,and I find much of what it has to say reasonalble, but I am still unconvinced that Chamberlain didn't lead the charge. As for Oates supposed decision to retreat, I have never read anything to that effect in any of the texts on his career.
??????????????
One thing I still have not gotten straight to this day is, who ordered the bayonet charge down Little Round Top? Was it Chamberlain or was Lieutenant Melcher (see "With a flash of his sword")? More than likely it was Chamberlain. But Melchers biography states Chamberlain only gave the order to charge bayonets, Melcher did the rest. Gut instinct tells me that Chamberlain in fact did order the charge. I'll use a passage from the Killer Angels as a reasonable explanation:
The idead formed. "Let's fix bayonets,"Chamberlain said For a moment no one moved. 'We'll have the advantage of moving downhill,"he said Spear understood. His eyes saw ; he nodded automatically......... Lieutenant Melcher said, perplexed"Excuse me sir, but what is a right wheel forward?"
It is with this mind that Melcher could have never known what was happening in the first place, how could of he led the charge himself.
From: Jim Radmore
According to Trulock's "In the Hand of Providence, Page 147 thruoug 149, Melcher asked permissin to go forward and recsue some of the wounded.. Chamberlain answered
"You shall have the chance, I am about to order a charge." He added then, his voice rising over the battle din, "We are to make a great right wheel," and he stepped to the colers. "Bayonet!" Chamberlain shouted. "Forward. . . " The rest of his command was unheard as the cry "Bayonet!" went up and down the line, and the clash of bayonets being fixsed to muskets sounded in teh charged air. Then the word changed into a roar, and a wild yell rose from the regiment, wrung in desperation from two nundred throats. The colors started to move forard, Chamberlain, abreast with their bearer, his sword clenched in his right hand. Slowly now, waiting for theiR left to come nearly even to straighten the line; then_lieutanent Melcher jumped ahead of the color company, brandishing his sword, and those nearby heard him call, "Come on, . . . Come on, boys!"
I would go out on a limb and say than Chamberlain ordered and then led the charge donw Little Round Top. Melcher played a significant role but not the lead role. Chamberlain played down his role as the major player in the defense of Little Round Top but it was his decision to charge with bayonets that saved the day. I do not think that it matters who actually led the charge but it was JLC's decisijon to charge that changed the whole day...
Cul8r Jim Alex, VA
From: Dan Szepesi
Subject: Chamberlain's Charge
As far as Chamberlain's charge is concerned, I think the best explanation of was in Theodore Gerrish's book 'Army Life.' Gerrish was a private who served with the Twentieth Maine all throughout the war, and was there on Little Round Top. According to Gerrish (and I don't have the book in front of me so please forgive the paraphrase), Chamberlain ordered the charge, which shocked the men as they considered the immensity (and insanity ?) of the charge. The men hesitated, waiting for some brave and reckless soul to jump out in front of the men to lead the charge. Lt. Melcher then jumped in front and led the charge. I personally like this explanation, it seems rather plausible to me. Although Gerrish was prone to exagerate things, he usually leaned towards over-glorifying his commmanding officers.
Another note on the
IMHO,
Pvt. Daniel B. Szepesi
I just pulled Oliver Willcox Norton's " The Attack and Defense of
Little Round Top, Gettysburg, July 2, 1863" (Morningstar, 1983) from
my shelf where it has resided for the past couple of years.
Given the fact that I have numerous books (modern) on Gettysburg, none
of which are "short", and that one only has so much time to read (I
already neglect my wife and children in favor of the ACW), my question
is: is this a worthwhile read?
By "worthwhile" I mean, does it give an reasonably accurate picture of
events? Is it historically "trustworthy" - within reason?
Would like some opinions from those who have read it.
Thanks,
I think it would be well worth your time to read the book. Norton was the
color bearer for Vincent. He was there-you can see the big rock behind
the NY monument where he stood with the colors only to be told by Vincent
to get down(in a colorfull manner as a recall) This rock also has a
description carved in it claiming (erroneously) that that is where
Vincent was shot.
Norton quotes from most major accounts of the attack on LRT and then
tells his opinion of the veracity of the account. Thus, not only is
the book interesting because of Norton description of the events but it
also gives you several other views from actual participants in the battle.
From: "Patrick J. King"
Having read most of the books on JLC I agree that he has been made bigger
than life by "the movie" and some of the books written about him. While
he was not much of an educator nor govenor (was Grant much more than a
war hero president ie, the handling of the Indian situation in the West?),
he was a good writer. His writing touches the soul and brings out the
psychological wounds (if we want to argue about wounds) that affect many
soldiers. As a Vietnam combat veteran I identify with the chaos that is
present during combat, and I am amazed that units of either side at
Gettysburg were successful. Whether he actually led the
charge is a mote point. He was in charge, officers can not deligate
responsibility, only authority. This is a tried and true concept of
Military Officer schools and OCS Training Centers of all branches. He
made the decision and was present (will we argue over feet and inches).
With the range of the weapons sufficient lead was passing him by. Because
of the role of Pennsylvania at Little round Top it is easy to see why the
monuments lean toward other than 20th Maine, in word and cement!
JLC was present in many major battles, but perhaps his most significant
action took place at Appomattox Courthouse. His treatment of Lee's men
was outstanding and says much about the man...commemnts appreciated.
The Norton book was written by an elderly vetgeran who was anything
but a professional writer. It is disorganized and repititious. But it was written by a man who was determined to get at the truth of the Little Round Top episode, who tried his damndest to be scrupulously fair and to consult any well-=informed source. Moreover, he was that
rarest of historians, an eyewitness who knows better than to trust his own
uncorrected memories or to take his subjective feelings for the core truth
of the matter. Therefore, he's a source well worth consulting and about
as authoratative as the fog of battle will allow.
Norm Levitt
Hi y'all.
For those interested, I recently returned from a trip with my family to
Acadia National Park in Bar Harbor, Maine, and stopped at Brunswick on the
way back to my home in Pennsylvania to visit the grave of Joshua Lawrence
Chamberlain near Bowdoin College.
Not knowing exactly where his grave was located, I went to the college
campus and flagged down someone on his bicycle who happened to be an
employee of the college library. He guided me to the third floor of the
library to the Special Collections section, separated from the rest of the
library by jail-like bars. I talked to a student employee and asked if he
knew where JLC's grave was located. It is located in Pinegrove Cemetery just
one block away from the college campus on Route 24.
Before I left, the student asked if I wanted to see JLC's medal of valor. He
retrieved it from the vault and placed it on the table for me to examine. It
was awe-inspiring to think that this very medal was worn around the neck of
the hero of LRT. The student also showed me a bracelet JLC designed for his
wife. It had an inlayed Maltese cross (for the 5th Corps) on a gold band
about an inch wide, with rectangular slits spaced evenly over the length of
the band. Between the slits on the gold were engraved a name of a battle JLC
was engaged in. The student showed me a typewritten list of all of the
engraved battle names on the bracelet and asked me how many of them were in
Pennsylvania. Only one that I could see: Gettysburg. The rest were in
Maryland and Virginia.
My family and I then drove a few blocks away to the Pinegrove Cemetery and
checked out the family plot. I parked near section A (the sections are
marked on the inside of the wire fence along the road) under a shady tree
and told the family to get out and help me look for the grave. It was right
where we parked! The Chamberlain plot is the third family plot in from the
road in section A.
But what a disappointment! Instead of a tall obelisk listing all of his
notable achievements, including that of being governor of Maine, there were
two markers: a waist-high rose-colored granite one that marked his head on
which was engraved "Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain" and a military issue flat
grave marker in the middle of his grave with his name and dates of birth and
death. His wife is buried alongside of him, as well as two children. Two
other infant children are buried on the other side of the family plot.
Several little U.S. flags adorned the base of the larger marker, along with
small silk flower arrangements. Pennies were arranged on the top of it in
the shape of "20 ME" and there were pennies as well on the military issue
marker. My family and I each placed a penny on his two markers and turned
every existing penny upwards with JLC's Commander in Chief looking upward.
Pennies were also on the headstones of his wife and children.
In telling my brother, a re-enactor, about what I saw, he stated that
perhaps the reason for the understated markers was that they reflected the
humility of the man. I never thought of it that way. But I was surprised
that there wasn't much of a fuss over his grave as I had expected.
I took several pictures of the gravestones and family plot. If anyone would
like to have a picture, e-mail me and I'll let you know what I have
available. I'm not a very good photographer, but the stones are at least in
focus.
Good Day All,
With regards to a recent post on JLC's grave, I too have visited this
marker. While yes, it is not some grand gaudy stone proclaiming his past fetes
and fame, it is so much more.
I have visited many civil war graves sites, and this grave, because of it's
unassuming nature, and the plethora of paraphenalia that usually adorns it. can
literally speak out to you.
Did you go into the theatre on campus? They list on the wall all the
students who fought for the Union, above the ticket booth. But, while this is
fascinating, the real treat is on the stairwell, where they pay tribute to
their sons who fought for the South. Unlike Harvard University who refuses to
recognize these souls, I feel Bowdoin has it's heart in the right place, though
the plaque could be a little more conspicuous.
I wish I could talk more, but I have to be going to go and pick up my
daughter from day care. Best to all, and yes, if you get a chance when you're
in Maine, stop by and pay Lawrence a visit.
Regards,
Golly, I should learn to never say never! I recently wrote a post that
Chamberlain never said that he ordered the charge. Well that is not
quite accurate. In fact he did say that he ordered the charge in a
piece he wrote which was published in 1907 in DEEDS OF VALOR, OR HOW
AMERICAN HEROES WON THE MEDAL OF HONOR. He wrote "Giving the order to
charge, I placed myself beside the colors..." This is the article which
made Ellis Spear so mad. It is interesting to see how the stories
changed as the old soldiers got older.
Bill
From: jschuu@ix.netcom.com (John Schuurman
Hello,
I have been lurking for a time and have greatly enjoyed the reading. Do
you people have day jobs? Or are you all history professors? I am much
impressed with the level of insight and evidence of scholarship
demonstrated here.
This My first post and do hope I get proceedural matters right.
While the term "window dressing" for the campaigns in the West is
overstated, I would agree with the premise that it was Lee and the Army
of Virginia on whom ultimate outcomes were fixed.
So I do concur that it was Gettysburg that was the pivotal battle of
the war and thus also need to say that (despite the danger of
simplistic reductionism) Gettysburg was then the pivotal event in
modern North American history.
Let me push the logic a little further: Is there a turning point to the
battle itself? We say that Pickett's charge was the "high water mark"
of the Confederacy, that being true gives some weight to that as THE
event of the battle/war/century.
But, while Pickett's charge was doubtless the most massive event of the
three days, it does seem that the outcome was a foregone conclusion
even before the cannonade prior to the charge. It seems to me that it
was far more negative odds than a finesse made on a 50/50 wish.
Let me suggest two other possible choices: 1) the choosing of the high
ground by __________ (? oops! I forgot and am away from my books). If
geography is destiny, here surely was a case in point. Can this initial
decision and then the tenacious defense of it be called THE event of
the the battle/war/century?
But I like this one better: 2)Chamberlin's stand on the left and his
command to charge with bayonets fixed on empty muskets. Here matters
truly hung in the balance. If the South had been able to flank the
Union lines at this time on this day, a good argument can be made that
subsequent events would have been very different.
===============
But she was great, and the kids ... I don't know if it was the
so-called "spirit of Lincoln" that still moves around the field, or my
threats to "listen and be nice or no ice-cream", or what I hope was a
sense of the immensity of what happened there and the way that has
impacted their lives ... but the kids were hushed. They asked
intelligent questions. Here is the kicker: a couple of them bought
books at the shop!
Regards,
John Schuurman
For John Schuurman,
Bill Cameron
For Patrick King,
BTW, I also have a letter in that bunch from a modern Urologist
describing in GREAT detail Chamberlain's wound and how a GLASS catheter
had broken off in his penis. Ugh! Anyone interested in this little
diddy?:)
Bill Cameron
Question, I thought Chamberlain was wounded from one hip to the
other at Petersburg or there abouts, what is the truth in this? It has
been written that he suffered for the rest of his life, can you cast some
light on this? Thanks again for the detail in your mail...
You didn't sound flippant at all and I sure hope I didn't. You raise
an interesting point as to what was being written at the time. I know
that Melcher published an article in the Lincoln County News which was
republished in B&L. It appears that Ellis Spear got mad at Chamberlain
kind of late in the game. When Chamberlain's article was published in
DEEDS OF VALOR... Spear got busy writing letters. He also published his
version in a column named "Sketches and Echoes" in the NATIONAL TRIBUNE.
I have a Xerox copy of it. After Chamberlain died, O.W. Norton (wrote
ATTACK AND DEFENSE...) got into the act of Chamberlain bashing. He was
very critical of Chamberlain in a letter to Boyd Vincent (Strong's
brother). Spear was kind to Chamberlain as late as 1899 when he wrote
Congressman Amos Allen on Chamberlain's behalf to increase his pension.
Some period books that have Chamberlain charging are William
Swinton's CAMPAIGNS OF THE ARMY OF THE POTOMAC and and the Comte de
Paris' THE CIVIL WAR IN AMERICA. No mention of Melcher in any of them.
I also checked Doubledays' book and there is nothing in it either. We
know Chamberlain was fussing about it to Spear in 1896. It appears to
me that they really got to it after Chamberlain's death.
In the for what it's worth category, there is also disagreement as to
whether or not 140th really charged down LRT in support of the 16th
Michigan without loading first (see the Farley account). And one of my
favorites is what the Signal Corps officers had to say about Warren when
he came to the signal station. I realize that lots of folks could care
less about this minutiae but I love it! (Moderator's Note: Discussion of this comment is on the Little Round Top Page.)
Bill
For Michael Hartenstine:
There was some picket activity on BRT and some confusion with some of
Fisher's regiments but no fight. They took some prisoners by tricking
them to come up BRT.
Bill
For those interested, I recently returned from a trip with my family to
Acadia National Park in Bar Harbor, Maine, and stopped at Brunswick on the
way back to my home in Pennsylvania to visit the grave of Joshua Lawrence
Chamberlain near Bowdoin College.
Not knowing exactly where his grave was located, I went to the college
campus and flagged down someone on his bicycle who happened to be an
employee of the college library. He guided me to the third floor of the
library to the Special Collections section, separated from the rest of the
library by jail-like bars. I talked to a student employee and asked if he
knew where JLC's grave was located. It is located in Pinegrove Cemetery just
one block away from the college campus on Route 24.
Before I left, the student asked if I wanted to see JLC's medal of valor. He
retrieved it from the vault and placed it on the table for me to examine. It
was awe-inspiring to think that this very medal was worn around the neck of
the hero of LRT. The student also showed me a bracelet JLC designed for his
wife. It had an inlayed Maltese cross (for the 5th Corps) on a gold band
about an inch wide, with rectangular slits spaced evenly over the length of
the band. Between the slits on the gold were engraved a name of a battle JLC
was engaged in. The student showed me a typewritten list of all of the
engraved battle names on the bracelet and asked me how many of them were in
Pennsylvania. Only one that I could see: Gettysburg. The rest were in
Maryland and Virginia.
My family and I then drove a few blocks away to the Pinegrove Cemetery and
checked out the family plot. I parked near section A (the sections are
marked on the inside of the wire fence along the road) under a shady tree
and told the family to get out and help me look for the grave. It was right
where we parked! The Chamberlain plot is the third family plot in from the
road in section A.
But what a disappointment! Instead of a tall obelisk listing all of his
notable achievements, including that of being governor of Maine, there were
two markers: a waist-high rose-colored granite one that marked his head on
which was engraved "Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain" and a military issue flat
grave marker in the middle of his grave with his name and dates of birth and
death. His wife is buried alongside of him, as well as two children. Two
other infant children are buried on the other side of the family plot.
Several little U.S. flags adorned the base of the larger marker, along with
small silk flower arrangements. Pennies were arranged on the top of it in
the shape of "20 ME" and there were pennies as well on the military issue
marker. My family and I each placed a penny on his two markers and turned
every existing penny upwards with JLC's Commander in Chief looking upward.
Pennies were also on the headstones of his wife and children.
In telling my brother, a re-enactor, about what I saw, he stated that
perhaps the reason for the understated markers was that they reflected the
humility of the man. I never thought of it that way. But I was surprised
that there wasn't much of a fuss over his grave as I had expected.
I took several pictures of the gravestones and family plot. If anyone would
like to have a picture, e-mail me and I'll let you know what I have
available. I'm not a very good photographer, but the stones are at least in
focus.
Hi Paul:
Regards,
Roger
Near the end of the walkway near the top of big round top
there is a monument on behalf of Chamberlain and the 20th maine.
When I saw this last year I assumed this is where chamberlain
fought off hoods men on july 2nd. This year I took a closer look and
discovered the monument reads this is where Chamberlain held the
extreme left of the federal position on july 3rd. Driving further up
the road between big and little round I saw the direction to the
place where the struggle between chamberlain and the alabamians took
place. On Brt there is a low stone wall at the far left the monument
stands reading the exact spot chamberlain stood while attacking
the enemy. except for the summit or the base of the mountain I
did not think a confrontation took place here. Did chamberlain
stay here until the confederate withdrew from gettysburg. The movie
depicts chamberlain being relieved at the end of the second days
battle. Where and when did chamberlain have time to heel from his
wounds? Sorry for being long winded take care group.
I thought some of you might enjoy Joshua Chamberlain's speech (sermon)
to the disaffected brothers from Maine in the movie.
(What a discussion group! What other one could talk about "the movie"
and everyone would know what was meant.)
CHAMBERLAIN
I've been talking to pvt. Buckham, he's "told me about your
problem. Nothing I can do today. We're moving out in a few
minutes. I'm told that if you don't come, I can shoot you. Well
you know I won't do that; maybe somebody else will but I won't.
Here's the situation. The whole reb army is up that road a few
miles waiting for us so this is no time for an argument like
this. We could surely use you fellows. We're now well below half
strength. Whether you fight or not, that's up to you, whether or
not you come along ... well you're coming.
You know who we are what we've been fighting for, but if you come
along there's a few things I want you to know. This regiment was
formed last summer. there were 1000 of us then, there are less
than 300 of us now. All of us volunteered to fight for the union
just as you did. Some came, mainly because we were bored at home
and it looked like this might be fun. Some came because we were
ashamed not to, some because it was the right thing to do. All of
us have seen men die.
This is a different kind of army. It you look back through
history, you will see men fighting for pay, for women or some
other kind of loot. [pause] They fight for land, power; because a
king leads them or just because they like killing.
But we are here for something new. This has not happened much in
the history of the world. But we are an army out to set other men
free. The country should be free, proud, all of it, all the way
to the pacific ocean, not divided to slave states or free. No man
has to bow, no man born to royalty. Here we judge you by what you
do, not by who your father was. Here you can be something. Here
is the place to build a home. But its not the land, there is
always more land. Its the idea, that we all have value. You and
me, what we're fighting for in the end, we're fighting for each
other.
Sorry, didn't mean to preach.
You go ahead, you talk for a while. If you chose to join us, you
can have your muskets back, nothing more will be said by anyone.
If you chose not to join us, you can come along under guard and
when this is all over, I will do my best to see that you get a
fair treatment. But for now we're moving out.
Gentlemen, I think if we lose this fight we will lose the war, so
if you chose to join us. I'll be personally very grateful.
End of file
20th Maine Re-Enactment Unit, Company E
Vincent's Brigade
From: MEpst29623@aol.com
Subject: Norton:"Attack & Defense..."
To the Group:
Mal
MEpst29623@aol.com
From :Bob Lawrence
Subject: JLC and Little Roundtop
From: Norman Levitt
Subject: Re: Norton:"Attack & Defense..."
From: Logan Garth Swangeasta2001@pennet.net (Asta)
Subject: Report on JLC's grave
From: FIORAVANTI@mayb.dnet.teradyne.com
Subject: RE:JLC grave
Jeff
From: alexander.cameron@smokeys.com (Alexander Cameron)
Subject: Chamberlain's Charge/Opps
My battlefield visit annecdote:
My first trip to Gettysburg was in August of 1988 as the chaperone of a
touring bus full of teenagers. I was from South Dakota at the time and
was in charge of this bunch of rascals. We had been to a church-related
youth rally at the Universtity of Maryland and were on our way back.
I didn't know what to expect of these kids. I was worried. They were
good kids but typical kids. (If you can't put ketchup on it or dance to
it, it is probably of interest to somebody else). I wanted my first
visit to this place to be special but was steeled to the possibility
that they would all be bored and probably rude.
And when a woman of perhaps 60 or 70 climbed on our bus to guide us
through the battlefield, I dispaired.
Wheaton, Illinois
From: alexander.cameron@smokeys.com (Alexander Cameron)
Subject: Turning Point/Chamberlain's command to charge
John, glad you stopped lurking! Your choices for the turning point
within the Battle of Gettysburg are solid. I assume you are referring
to John Buford as to the individual who selected the "high ground". On
the issue of Chamberlain ordering the charge, that issue is being
debated lately (again). Whether or not Chamberlain actually ordered or
led the charge of the 20th Maine is an old controversy. It has been
stirred up again by William Styple's book WITH A FLASH OF HIS SWORD.
The argument is that Lieut. Holman Melcher led the charge and the only
command that Chamberlain gave was "Bayonets." You can read Melcher's
account in B&L, vol. III. Two other written accounts say basically the
same thing. They are Theodore Gerrish's ARMY LIFE, A PRIVATE'S
Reminisces OF THE CIVIL WAR, and a National Tribune article by Ellis
Spear. If you read Chamberlain's two accounts of the charge, his report
in the OR and his article "Through Blood and Fire at Gettysburg", he
never said that he ordered the charge. In the article he said that he
told Melcher "I am about to order a charge." He went on to say "One
word was enough, '--BAYONET!' It caught like fire, and swept along the
ranks... It were vain to order 'Forward'..." Seems like Chamberlain is
less guilty of hyperbole than his modern fans. Not sure how important
all of this is and I know that some folks have a real hard time with
this. However, I also think we are suffering a bit from Shaara's
romantic account and Turner's movie.
From: alexander.cameron@smokeys.com (Alexander Cameron)
Subject: Chamberlain's ChargeFrom: FrankAnton@aol.com
Not real sure where you are on this Patrick. First you said that it
doesn't matter and then you said that no Lieutant was going to take
command when his real commander was standing there ... I'm not sure it
is important either but it is interesting. There is a lot of material
on this that Styple doesn't touch in his book. I got interested in it
the other day and went back and read what Pullen said about it in his
book which was written in the 50's. Pullen wrote that "Lieutenant
Melcher sprang out in front of the line with his sword flashing, and
this seems to have been the spark." Not sure anyone has said that the
Lieut. took "command". Seems like a lot of folks think that he
(Melcher) led them down the slope. I also took a look in the Xerox
copies of the Ellis Spear letters I have and there is one from
Chamberlain to Spear and Chamberlain wrote, "The Melcher incident is
also magnified. He is now presented to the public as having suggested
the charge. There is no truth in this. I had communicated with you
before he came and asked me if he could not advance his company and
tgather in some prisoners in his front. I told him to take his place
with his company; that I was about to order a general charge. He went
on the run and did, I have no doubt, gallant service; but he did no more
than many other did..." Again, I think this is really interesting
stuff.
From: Patrick King
Bill,
Thanks for your comment. Did not want to sound flippant in my
remarks. When I said it doesn't matter this was not a dismissal but rather
a point that it seems Chamberlain was in charge and was about his business.
Some writings seem to imply that the charge "on wheel" would never have
taken place without Melcher. It is interesting. Chamberlain seems a
sincere person and his honesty also seems to have weathered the ravages of
time. I believe he intended to charge. It would be interesting to know if
his part in the Battle of Gettysburg has always been suspect (that he
overplayed them). His actions elsewhere are well noted (Grant thought
highly of him); a Medal of Honor and Appomattox. etc. If the South had
rolled over Little Round Top at his position and moved down the ridge then
what? What did writers in newspapers and historical journals say at the
time about him? I would like to more about the material you have if you
have the time.
From: Alexander Cameron
For Patrick King:
From: alexander.cameron@smokeys.com (Alexander Cameron)
Subject: Chamberlain
Michael, Chamberlain was withdrawn from BRT about noon on the 3rd and
"formed on the right of the brigade, in the front edge of a piece of
woods near the left center of our main line of batle, where we were held
in readiness to support our troops, then receiving the severe attack of
the afternoon of that day".[Chamberlain, report, OR 27, 1, p.626] He
wrote "about noon" in his report written on 6 July. Later, he recalled
that he was relieved at 9 o'clock ["Through Blood and Fire at
Gettysburg"]
From: Logan Garth Swangerasta2001@pennet.net (Asta)
Subject: Report on JLC's grave
Hi y'all.
From: Giencke/Stern
JLC was in GB in the middle of May 1913 to help with the arrangements
for the 50th. However, his health was so bad he did not make it back
for the "great reunion" six weeks later.
From: "MICHAEL E HARTENSTINE"
Subject: Chamberlain
Michael E. Hartenstine
E-mail: mharten@admin.mc3.edu
From: jschuu@ix.netcom.com (John Schuurman )
Subject: JLC on freedom from the Movie